Posted Jan 23, 2007 at 07:50AM by Max F.
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Opinions & Analysis
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Blizzard,
Square Enix,
PS2,
Neil Gaiman
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55 Comments
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by Hedgehog (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» how realistic should RPGs be?
I don't think that anyone thinks too much about realism while playing a RPG...it may be different when playing a shooter or a sports game, but RPGs are all about fantasy.
The decisions for the loot systems are given by the game mechanics.
I mean, what do you do with 1725643 rat furs? You can't carry them in real-life or they are flooding your inventory which would make the game-experience more annoying.
I don't think that anyone thinks too much about realism while playing a RPG...it may be different when playing a shooter or a sports game, but RPGs are all about fantasy.
The decisions for the loot systems are given by the game mechanics.
I mean, what do you do with 1725643 rat furs? You can't carry them in real-life or they are flooding your inventory which would make the game-experience more annoying.
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Re: uh duh (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» don't pick them up
Just because loot is dropped doesn't mean you need to pick it up. if rat fews are worth selling then yeah pick them up and sell them immediately, but if they're not, then don't pick up 1, not to mention 1,725,643 of them.
Just because loot is dropped doesn't mean you need to pick it up. if rat fews are worth selling then yeah pick them up and sell them immediately, but if they're not, then don't pick up 1, not to mention 1,725,643 of them.
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Re: Anti-Steve (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» please continue!
Yeah, you don't think too much about realism in an RPG when you're freakin 6. And RPG realism, I personally think, should be in more demand to keep older gamers interested, entertained, and ultimately happy.
Even when RPGs are about fantasy, you know that a boar just shouldn't drop a spear and rats shouldn't be smuggling daggers. Certain item drops should be exclusive to specific monsters, some monsters shouldn't even drop items, making it a monster you'd want to avoid, unless to make up for it, the monster would give up more experience....
Please expand on this article! Make it a petition! Send it to all the big developers - This should be made into a guide for all RPGs. Thank you.
Yeah, you don't think too much about realism in an RPG when you're freakin 6. And RPG realism, I personally think, should be in more demand to keep older gamers interested, entertained, and ultimately happy.
Even when RPGs are about fantasy, you know that a boar just shouldn't drop a spear and rats shouldn't be smuggling daggers. Certain item drops should be exclusive to specific monsters, some monsters shouldn't even drop items, making it a monster you'd want to avoid, unless to make up for it, the monster would give up more experience....
Please expand on this article! Make it a petition! Send it to all the big developers - This should be made into a guide for all RPGs. Thank you.
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Re: Matt (Unregistered) - 2007-01-24 |
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» ANTI-STEVE
RPGs, like every other game, is made to be fun and challenging, not realistic. Square never thinks "hm... lets make this game as realistic as possible!" when they make a RPG.
If you want realistic, get of your ass into the real world, or playing s.hitty games like the sims.
RPGs, like every other game, is made to be fun and challenging, not realistic. Square never thinks "hm... lets make this game as realistic as possible!" when they make a RPG.
If you want realistic, get of your ass into the real world, or playing s.hitty games like the sims.
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by jakster4u (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» loot
Have they seen monster hunter?
Have they seen monster hunter?
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Re: Hehehe (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» Eh...
Well, Monster Hunter isn't exactly a pure RPG, either.
Well, Monster Hunter isn't exactly a pure RPG, either.
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Re: heads up! (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» Good game
I picked up to gypceros heads once. It made me do a double take.
I picked up to gypceros heads once. It made me do a double take.
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Re: Max F. (QJ. NET Staff) - 2007-01-23 |
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» I can not believe...
I can not believe that I neglected to mention Monster Hunter. The ideas mentioned in this article would have been conveyed more clearly if I used Monster Hunter as an example.
I can not believe that I neglected to mention Monster Hunter. The ideas mentioned in this article would have been conveyed more clearly if I used Monster Hunter as an example.
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Re: LordPhrozen (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» Monster Hunter
Yup. and where the hell is M.H. P/F 2 coverage. i demand more teasings. and if capcom doesnt release either p/f2 or Frontier here... idk what im going to do without my monster hunter..... ill freaking translate the freaking iso myself.
Yup. and where the hell is M.H. P/F 2 coverage. i demand more teasings. and if capcom doesnt release either p/f2 or Frontier here... idk what im going to do without my monster hunter..... ill freaking translate the freaking iso myself.
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Re: Talking to Max F. (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» Heed my warning
You know, you could always edit the article and add a new section on what Monster Hunter represents as a loot system.
Then again, you have to notice that the carve system is still quite broken, since some monsters fade away after a few seconds (the "prey" type monsters) and there's still the random chances of getting loot from carves (but there's always the "Mission Completion" loot part, too).
You know, you could always edit the article and add a new section on what Monster Hunter represents as a loot system.
Then again, you have to notice that the carve system is still quite broken, since some monsters fade away after a few seconds (the "prey" type monsters) and there's still the random chances of getting loot from carves (but there's always the "Mission Completion" loot part, too).
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Re: Neuromancer (Unregistered) - 2007-02-07 |
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» RE: Heed my warning
The article has to be final before it goes out to everyone's RSS readers.
The article has to be final before it goes out to everyone's RSS readers.
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by Bob (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» No-one plays an RPG for realism
We can't shove stones made of some kind of radioactive dead people oil into our arm to cast magic spells.
We can't carry swords that weigh 5 times as much as us, or are 4 times our height in length.
We don't grow to 6 times the size of a house just by leaving a city.
Planes can't hover in place.
Animals can't talk.
Dragons dont exist. (Cool as it would be if they did.)
RPG's aren't real, or realistic. If you want to play a realistic game, go play Fifa or something like that, because youu'll only get realism in a sports game.
We can't shove stones made of some kind of radioactive dead people oil into our arm to cast magic spells.
We can't carry swords that weigh 5 times as much as us, or are 4 times our height in length.
We don't grow to 6 times the size of a house just by leaving a city.
Planes can't hover in place.
Animals can't talk.
Dragons dont exist. (Cool as it would be if they did.)
RPG's aren't real, or realistic. If you want to play a realistic game, go play Fifa or something like that, because youu'll only get realism in a sports game.
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Re: Keitaro (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» Black Wolf dropped laser cannon
I agree with Bob if you're complaining about realism go play fifa making an RPG realistic is stupid who would want to have a Max Item Storage of 10, no level ups and characters that die jumping from 10m height.
I agree with Bob if you're complaining about realism go play fifa making an RPG realistic is stupid who would want to have a Max Item Storage of 10, no level ups and characters that die jumping from 10m height.
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Re: Id - 2007-01-23 |
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» lol
yup very true lol, but sometimes you do wonder why a character wears the same piece of clothing the whole game, no armor changes, and specially the best part is when they pull their swords out of their ass.
and we are talking about rpgs, nothing to do with FIFA. Just wanting to add " S O M E" Realism to some games, not completely Disable them.
yup very true lol, but sometimes you do wonder why a character wears the same piece of clothing the whole game, no armor changes, and specially the best part is when they pull their swords out of their ass.
and we are talking about rpgs, nothing to do with FIFA. Just wanting to add " S O M E" Realism to some games, not completely Disable them.
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Re: PurpleShadow (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» lol
Tidus: Running out of breath... must. play. BLITZBALL!
Tidus: Running out of breath... must. play. BLITZBALL!
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by tvirus (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» nonsense
i agree with them in some point , but the games are for fun if you turn an RPG too much realistic its boring and tiresome ...
long life the monsters that drops 1000000 gils ! jejejej
i agree with them in some point , but the games are for fun if you turn an RPG too much realistic its boring and tiresome ...
long life the monsters that drops 1000000 gils ! jejejej
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by zerofive (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» this dude
is a ***** w4nker
is a ***** w4nker
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by Ikuzou (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» Agree with jakster4u
Monster Hunter is like completely different from those typical RPG statements. I mean, you kill monsters and then "carve" pieces off them (like a veliociprey will drop Vprey hides, skin, and teeth). And nothing is actually useless since everything can be crafted into something else.
Monster Hunter is like completely different from those typical RPG statements. I mean, you kill monsters and then "carve" pieces off them (like a veliociprey will drop Vprey hides, skin, and teeth). And nothing is actually useless since everything can be crafted into something else.
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by s00pcan (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» `
ctrl+f oblivion not found. It has good loot dropping.
ctrl+f oblivion not found. It has good loot dropping.
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by Snarg (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» .
Now if only they'd put that much thought and effort into how to run this site better . . .
Now if only they'd put that much thought and effort into how to run this site better . . .
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by Id - 2007-01-23 |
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» yeah
This is one of the reasons i love Monster hunter, has alot of realism. Wish they make a sequal for PS3 PC and 360....
But other than that i do agree with Para #1
Specially on the money and weapon parts, since..thats just retarded, but delelopers dont care because we grew accustmed to it...and its easier for them lol, Sadly. But yeah now we have better technology, so i dont really see why there should be problems adding a little more realism.
I personally think that monsters can drop body parts(or skin, teeth, scales, etc.) and those could be SOLD for money or USED in the making of the weapon.
Also instead of monsters actually dropping the weapon(unless like mentioned above with the moby-dic example, where the monster had them already), they could have the key(depending the monster) or are protecting the treasure etc. watever. depends the mob....yeah i went there.
Also my other beef wich only applies to some games like for example FFXI....Animation. The lack of non- combat realism. For say, when you fall off a "Cliff" the character doesnt really have a landing animation, or anything of that sorts. Other than that, in many games TINY TINY 1ft hills that characters cant jump, or easily climb over......is it just lazyness?
LAST THING! this mainly goes out to MMORPGS...
Monsters that look the exactly the same.... just vary by name different name.....
two words.
Blue crabs..
-- that is all. No size changes, Palette change(color), just no change...and they have you fight things like this for MOST of the game and expect you to not get bored..
This is one of the reasons i love Monster hunter, has alot of realism. Wish they make a sequal for PS3 PC and 360....
But other than that i do agree with Para #1
Specially on the money and weapon parts, since..thats just retarded, but delelopers dont care because we grew accustmed to it...and its easier for them lol, Sadly. But yeah now we have better technology, so i dont really see why there should be problems adding a little more realism.
I personally think that monsters can drop body parts(or skin, teeth, scales, etc.) and those could be SOLD for money or USED in the making of the weapon.
Also instead of monsters actually dropping the weapon(unless like mentioned above with the moby-dic example, where the monster had them already), they could have the key(depending the monster) or are protecting the treasure etc. watever. depends the mob....yeah i went there.
Also my other beef wich only applies to some games like for example FFXI....Animation. The lack of non- combat realism. For say, when you fall off a "Cliff" the character doesnt really have a landing animation, or anything of that sorts. Other than that, in many games TINY TINY 1ft hills that characters cant jump, or easily climb over......is it just lazyness?
LAST THING! this mainly goes out to MMORPGS...
Monsters that look the exactly the same.... just vary by name different name.....
two words.
Blue crabs..
-- that is all. No size changes, Palette change(color), just no change...and they have you fight things like this for MOST of the game and expect you to not get bored..
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by Granavatar_OfMe (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» Diablo II Rules!!!.
I dont mind,it doesnt make sense but come on since when RPG's make sense?.
In Guildwars is the only game where monsters leave you stuff that makes sense for example an animal never leave you stuff like weapons only enemy Warriors leave you weapons.And thats why most of the time in guildwars the loot is crap.
I dont mind,it doesnt make sense but come on since when RPG's make sense?.
In Guildwars is the only game where monsters leave you stuff that makes sense for example an animal never leave you stuff like weapons only enemy Warriors leave you weapons.And thats why most of the time in guildwars the loot is crap.
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by jayhawker09 (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» but
dont you already get better loot at higher levels? like in every rpg ever made?
dont you already get better loot at higher levels? like in every rpg ever made?
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by Pal (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» Hmm
Why is realism so important in a fantasy setting?
Technology does indeed evolve, but ideas generally don't. Is it a crime that I like getting fruit as power ups?
If RPGs became as real as you propose, it'd be a chore to play. The developers would have to make less encounters, give loot in measurements ("You got 210 ccs of blood!"), and/or make the loot value dirt-cheap since otherwise your inventory would get full in an hour.
Next we'll plead for realistic plot involving a convenience store clerk selling the most the store has ever sold with the help of his best friends!
This is an interesting idea, but I don't think that it will enhance the RPG experience. This idea would be better suited for games like Monster Hunter instead.
Why is realism so important in a fantasy setting?
Technology does indeed evolve, but ideas generally don't. Is it a crime that I like getting fruit as power ups?
If RPGs became as real as you propose, it'd be a chore to play. The developers would have to make less encounters, give loot in measurements ("You got 210 ccs of blood!"), and/or make the loot value dirt-cheap since otherwise your inventory would get full in an hour.
Next we'll plead for realistic plot involving a convenience store clerk selling the most the store has ever sold with the help of his best friends!
This is an interesting idea, but I don't think that it will enhance the RPG experience. This idea would be better suited for games like Monster Hunter instead.
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by Links (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» All your crates are belong to us.
First of all, good article Max F. It's always nice when someone takes a step back and questions the illogical universe of videogaming. :)
Secondly, sorry about the length of this comment, I just have a lot on my mind. It aint that much spam. ;)
Speaking as a level designer (and a wanna-be gamedesigner :P) though, I'd say the problem isn't unrealistic loot, it's illogical solutions of problems that are mostly based upon the very fine tradition of "we've always done it this way".
Sword-dropping rats? Sure thing, we've seen this kind of stuff ever since Eye of the Beholder. So, hey, we must be used to it! That must be how loot in games work! Right?
Or, lets take the fine, fine, tradition of crates. Everyone just loves crates, especially the guys over at http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/39.html. Why do we always see crates in videogames, and especially in the FPS-genre? Could it be because the developers have used crates to simply fill out space since, oh I dont know, Doom? Wolf3d? Or flaming barrels, those are cool too, yeah, or exploding barrels, yeah, I'll put them all over my deserted subway level and no one will give a damned that they must have materialized down there because they just couldn't fit through that tiny hole that is the entrance, right? :)
For that matter, huge crates that contain ammo? Who in their right mind would put just one ammoclip in a box? "Yeah, that'd be good, we'll just put one ammoclip here, and, umm, yeah, let's find an empty box for these gold coins... we may not have many valuable items, but we sure have a lot of boxes to put them in, ho ho ho."
Back in the olden days, yeah, I can buy that developers used crates to fill out their game-worlds. Boxes are cheap on memory and look pretty nifty, ey? But nowadays? It's alright if the crates are in.. let's see, where do crates live? Storagerooms, warehouses, cratefactories..?
I can't honestly say where I saw a wooden crate last time. IKEA? Most definetly not at the busstation, the mall or at work, where most brother- and sistercrates of the gaming universe ends up. And the crate I saw in the real world was either empty or contained a bit more than a giftwrapped Healthpotion +5.
There are tons of more examples that are simply put just the result of bad game- and leveldesign.
Some developers do however manage to break free from the vicious circle of not giving-a-damned-about-logic-and-consistency. Take Halo, which I believe was the first FPS to give up on the idea that the human body could be healed with health packs. A protective shield worked just as well and was more logical too. "Realistic" humans don't heal by picking up an oversized bandageicon even though they are in the mysterious and wonderful future where aliens live and valiant heroes can rise to glory with A/C helmets.
Anyway, what I think I mean to conclude with all my ravings, is that games don't have to be realistic, that's not the point. They have to be logical, or at least logical and consistent with the gameworld. Some games are set in an alternate reality, with a different set of game rules than we're used to, and it's fine. Loco Roco is a wonderful game (I haven't seen any crates yet) but it is not set in a "realistic, human, environment" so their game rules can be different as long as they are... you got it, logical and consistent with their gameworld.
And sure, some "bad solutions" come from a tight schedule, or memory issues, or performance issues and that is understandable. Sometimes it's just a matter of gameplay - it probably wouldn't be fun if the cars in GTA ran on gas, which you had to fill up every now and then (GTA cars all run on nuclear fission by the way) - but if the developers doesn't try and test new ideas, how will games ever evolve?
As always, we gamers (consumers of video games, yum, yum) have to make our voices heard when developers (even those that are out of EAs reach) mess up.
Viva la revolución!
...
Lets wrap up with another MMORPG-question I've yet to find a good answer to:
If
First of all, good article Max F. It's always nice when someone takes a step back and questions the illogical universe of videogaming. :)
Secondly, sorry about the length of this comment, I just have a lot on my mind. It aint that much spam. ;)
Speaking as a level designer (and a wanna-be gamedesigner :P) though, I'd say the problem isn't unrealistic loot, it's illogical solutions of problems that are mostly based upon the very fine tradition of "we've always done it this way".
Sword-dropping rats? Sure thing, we've seen this kind of stuff ever since Eye of the Beholder. So, hey, we must be used to it! That must be how loot in games work! Right?
Or, lets take the fine, fine, tradition of crates. Everyone just loves crates, especially the guys over at http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/39.html. Why do we always see crates in videogames, and especially in the FPS-genre? Could it be because the developers have used crates to simply fill out space since, oh I dont know, Doom? Wolf3d? Or flaming barrels, those are cool too, yeah, or exploding barrels, yeah, I'll put them all over my deserted subway level and no one will give a damned that they must have materialized down there because they just couldn't fit through that tiny hole that is the entrance, right? :)
For that matter, huge crates that contain ammo? Who in their right mind would put just one ammoclip in a box? "Yeah, that'd be good, we'll just put one ammoclip here, and, umm, yeah, let's find an empty box for these gold coins... we may not have many valuable items, but we sure have a lot of boxes to put them in, ho ho ho."
Back in the olden days, yeah, I can buy that developers used crates to fill out their game-worlds. Boxes are cheap on memory and look pretty nifty, ey? But nowadays? It's alright if the crates are in.. let's see, where do crates live? Storagerooms, warehouses, cratefactories..?
I can't honestly say where I saw a wooden crate last time. IKEA? Most definetly not at the busstation, the mall or at work, where most brother- and sistercrates of the gaming universe ends up. And the crate I saw in the real world was either empty or contained a bit more than a giftwrapped Healthpotion +5.
There are tons of more examples that are simply put just the result of bad game- and leveldesign.
Some developers do however manage to break free from the vicious circle of not giving-a-damned-about-logic-and-consistency. Take Halo, which I believe was the first FPS to give up on the idea that the human body could be healed with health packs. A protective shield worked just as well and was more logical too. "Realistic" humans don't heal by picking up an oversized bandageicon even though they are in the mysterious and wonderful future where aliens live and valiant heroes can rise to glory with A/C helmets.
Anyway, what I think I mean to conclude with all my ravings, is that games don't have to be realistic, that's not the point. They have to be logical, or at least logical and consistent with the gameworld. Some games are set in an alternate reality, with a different set of game rules than we're used to, and it's fine. Loco Roco is a wonderful game (I haven't seen any crates yet) but it is not set in a "realistic, human, environment" so their game rules can be different as long as they are... you got it, logical and consistent with their gameworld.
And sure, some "bad solutions" come from a tight schedule, or memory issues, or performance issues and that is understandable. Sometimes it's just a matter of gameplay - it probably wouldn't be fun if the cars in GTA ran on gas, which you had to fill up every now and then (GTA cars all run on nuclear fission by the way) - but if the developers doesn't try and test new ideas, how will games ever evolve?
As always, we gamers (consumers of video games, yum, yum) have to make our voices heard when developers (even those that are out of EAs reach) mess up.
Viva la revolución!
...
Lets wrap up with another MMORPG-question I've yet to find a good answer to:
If
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by Links (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» The question in question.
Seems I reached the text-limit there. :)
The question:
If a quest consists of killing 80 [blue crabs/giant rats/ rabid spiders/whatever], is it more fun than doing a quest of killing one giant [blue crab/giant rat/rabid spider/whatever] that in time and difficulty equals 80 [blue crabs/giant rats/rabid spiders/whatever]?
Or is it just bad gamedesign?
Seems I reached the text-limit there. :)
The question:
If a quest consists of killing 80 [blue crabs/giant rats/ rabid spiders/whatever], is it more fun than doing a quest of killing one giant [blue crab/giant rat/rabid spider/whatever] that in time and difficulty equals 80 [blue crabs/giant rats/rabid spiders/whatever]?
Or is it just bad gamedesign?
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Re: Max F. (QJ. NET Staff) - 2007-01-23 |
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» fellow QJ writer Gino D. told me...
One time Gino D. and I were drinking (non-alcoholic root-beer of course, because this is a PG-rated blog), that a good RPG has bite-sized quests. He said that it is better to do a few small tasks than one long task that might make your audience lose interest. So killing 2000 crabs is tedious (your audience will hate your game), 40 blue crabs is about right, but one blue crab that takes many minutes to kill might get tedious - especially if the whole game is full of crabs. Your players will get crabby! :)
Of course I disagree with Gino D. But I am a strange fellow. I want an RPG where the people of the village will throw your party in jail if you go into the homes of people and open their cabinets and treasure chests and take their gold and potions. I want an RPG where birds do not drop suits of armor when you kill them. It ruins the suspension of disbelief. Maybe I have just gotten used to playing sci-fi games, but I do believe that I have a point. I am not knocking RPG games - I just think there is room for redesign and I think it will not hurt if designers put in more thought (and come up with creative solutions! that is the challenge that will make creative juices flow!) towards the style, location, and types of boxes, loot, bags, and drops. :)
One time Gino D. and I were drinking (non-alcoholic root-beer of course, because this is a PG-rated blog), that a good RPG has bite-sized quests. He said that it is better to do a few small tasks than one long task that might make your audience lose interest. So killing 2000 crabs is tedious (your audience will hate your game), 40 blue crabs is about right, but one blue crab that takes many minutes to kill might get tedious - especially if the whole game is full of crabs. Your players will get crabby! :)
Of course I disagree with Gino D. But I am a strange fellow. I want an RPG where the people of the village will throw your party in jail if you go into the homes of people and open their cabinets and treasure chests and take their gold and potions. I want an RPG where birds do not drop suits of armor when you kill them. It ruins the suspension of disbelief. Maybe I have just gotten used to playing sci-fi games, but I do believe that I have a point. I am not knocking RPG games - I just think there is room for redesign and I think it will not hurt if designers put in more thought (and come up with creative solutions! that is the challenge that will make creative juices flow!) towards the style, location, and types of boxes, loot, bags, and drops. :)
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by Schluptnut (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» Ultima Online
F*** this S*** Im playing Ultima Online
F*** this S*** Im playing Ultima Online
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by Eric (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» Nice article
Honeslty, to your question. I'd go with the killing 80 critters. Since the only way to balance the one would be to give it 80x the hp (as if you increase the damage, it would be effectively force you to fight more than one at a time). Hacking something for 80x as long would be boring, while running a finding them at least breaks the thing up some. Plus, a group of 80 sounds like an infestation that you need to quell, vs one massive one sounds just dumb.
Now for the article, I think that logical loot that can be made into stuff is a lot cooler than bugs dropping plate armor (Champions of Norrath). It also gives you another aspect to try and min/max. The bazaar goods in FFXII is pretty neat, the cubing and runewords of DiabloII was cool too. It made it so you don't just go kill A to get Z. You have to kill A, B and C then take these to the smith so he can make Z.
Honeslty, to your question. I'd go with the killing 80 critters. Since the only way to balance the one would be to give it 80x the hp (as if you increase the damage, it would be effectively force you to fight more than one at a time). Hacking something for 80x as long would be boring, while running a finding them at least breaks the thing up some. Plus, a group of 80 sounds like an infestation that you need to quell, vs one massive one sounds just dumb.
Now for the article, I think that logical loot that can be made into stuff is a lot cooler than bugs dropping plate armor (Champions of Norrath). It also gives you another aspect to try and min/max. The bazaar goods in FFXII is pretty neat, the cubing and runewords of DiabloII was cool too. It made it so you don't just go kill A to get Z. You have to kill A, B and C then take these to the smith so he can make Z.
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by Nick (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» Oh jeez.
Anyone who actually took the time to think of this crap REALLY had nothing better or more important to do.
That said, @#$% all the games you guys are mentioning, Phantasy Star Online is still THE best mmo ever. I don`t care what you think.
Anyone who actually took the time to think of this crap REALLY had nothing better or more important to do.
That said, @#$% all the games you guys are mentioning, Phantasy Star Online is still THE best mmo ever. I don`t care what you think.
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Re: LordPhrozen (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» wow..
User(Nick).intelect + null
User(Nick).intelect + null
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Re: Nick (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» LOL
Wow, you insulted me with pseudo code. Man, you sure got me!! I mean you totally made me look like a fool!
Get a life kid.
Wow, you insulted me with pseudo code. Man, you sure got me!! I mean you totally made me look like a fool!
Get a life kid.
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Re: RommelTJ (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» You both are idiots....
LordPhrozen: learn to spell. That is not how you write "frozen" or "intellect".
Nick: You laugh at the author, but you "had nothing better or more important to do" than to reply with your unintelligent comment. You act all cool by telling "LordPhrozen" to get a life, yet you play Phantasy Star Online.
LordPhrozen: learn to spell. That is not how you write "frozen" or "intellect".
Nick: You laugh at the author, but you "had nothing better or more important to do" than to reply with your unintelligent comment. You act all cool by telling "LordPhrozen" to get a life, yet you play Phantasy Star Online.
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Re: Nick (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» Don`t forget
^^^^ AND Tales games. Sure, I may play, but I sure as hell don`t think hard over how I found my sword and money from a dead wolf. I just stfu and play it, you know?
^^^^ AND Tales games. Sure, I may play, but I sure as hell don`t think hard over how I found my sword and money from a dead wolf. I just stfu and play it, you know?
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by sorry (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» sorry
but i found that article a waste of time....
I'm guessing you are one of the people that would like the Gas Stations in GTA to actually be used to fill up your car? so that ever few miles you'd run out of gas?
These are video games for christ sake! they are supposed to take us away from reality!
go out in the real world and steal ppls liver if it turns you on that much! jesus
but i found that article a waste of time....
I'm guessing you are one of the people that would like the Gas Stations in GTA to actually be used to fill up your car? so that ever few miles you'd run out of gas?
These are video games for christ sake! they are supposed to take us away from reality!
go out in the real world and steal ppls liver if it turns you on that much! jesus
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by eggwonder (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» well...
some video games in fact take a step towards realism in order to make you or "the player" feel as if he/she was part of the game. I can agree that some games do need to stay as they are and continue to be made with the same drops that have been in the series since game 1 of that series. If everything was realistic games would be beyond tedious and also more dificult.
For example, you play a rpg and you kill a monster. Now, in real life someone would have to pick over the dead body for hours to get something of use, but in a video game people don't have time to sort through guts,drain blood, remove brains, pump gas, and other things that would take loads of time to do so we get drops with neatly packaged blood, furs,brains, etc.
If you think realism in an rpg is a good idea then imagine this: Taking hours,days, possibly weeks to make a sword with high stats and magical abilities.
some video games in fact take a step towards realism in order to make you or "the player" feel as if he/she was part of the game. I can agree that some games do need to stay as they are and continue to be made with the same drops that have been in the series since game 1 of that series. If everything was realistic games would be beyond tedious and also more dificult.
For example, you play a rpg and you kill a monster. Now, in real life someone would have to pick over the dead body for hours to get something of use, but in a video game people don't have time to sort through guts,drain blood, remove brains, pump gas, and other things that would take loads of time to do so we get drops with neatly packaged blood, furs,brains, etc.
If you think realism in an rpg is a good idea then imagine this: Taking hours,days, possibly weeks to make a sword with high stats and magical abilities.
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by DMer (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» If you want realism, go play pen & paper...
I think I like to differ PC-RPGS and Pen & Paper, because, PS-RPGs are like books that you read and Pen & Paper is RPG itself for me. Why not playing D&D if you want that, it got everything, depending on which Dungeon MAster you have.
For those who dont know, D&D is not a single genre, you cant say "Oh, it's that Dungeon-crawler thingie"
As I said it depends on the DM who make up the story for the Players.
If the DM is a good story writer or dowsn't like too much fighting and dungeon-crawling, he or she will definitly make a game where you have to go to kings and talk to them about a crisis in the west where a war is being prepared by another fraction or such things that are very complex.
Okay so back to topic:
In such Pen & Paper games, I for example, like to make things realistc by letting the player take the parts of the victim, for example a Bird's meat or an elephant which got ivory, and they sell it on the market OR, to speed up the game, they can take from a victim the parts or the whole victim and I just say how much it will be in GP after selling it and they get it right away...
In my opinion, RPGs will, and I think many do not care about that, never become super-realistic where you can climb every mountain and take every stone or mud from the bottom to use it in every imaginable way.
I think I like to differ PC-RPGS and Pen & Paper, because, PS-RPGs are like books that you read and Pen & Paper is RPG itself for me. Why not playing D&D if you want that, it got everything, depending on which Dungeon MAster you have.
For those who dont know, D&D is not a single genre, you cant say "Oh, it's that Dungeon-crawler thingie"
As I said it depends on the DM who make up the story for the Players.
If the DM is a good story writer or dowsn't like too much fighting and dungeon-crawling, he or she will definitly make a game where you have to go to kings and talk to them about a crisis in the west where a war is being prepared by another fraction or such things that are very complex.
Okay so back to topic:
In such Pen & Paper games, I for example, like to make things realistc by letting the player take the parts of the victim, for example a Bird's meat or an elephant which got ivory, and they sell it on the market OR, to speed up the game, they can take from a victim the parts or the whole victim and I just say how much it will be in GP after selling it and they get it right away...
In my opinion, RPGs will, and I think many do not care about that, never become super-realistic where you can climb every mountain and take every stone or mud from the bottom to use it in every imaginable way.
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by WC - 2007-01-23 |
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» Paradox?
These aren't paradoxes you idiot. Learn English and come back.
These aren't paradoxes you idiot. Learn English and come back.
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Re: Max F. (QJ. NET Staff) - 2007-01-27 |
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» Thank you for your comment.
I go away for a while and come back to see this comment. I must clarify some things.
A paradox is a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory or absurd but actually expresses a possible truth. In the case of this article, the term is not used in its strict logical sense. It is used loosely - what some linguistic philosophers and some poststructuralists call metaphorical language - which is perfectly valid English. But there is even a defense for describing loot drops as logical paradoxes. It seems to be a contradictory statement to say that a wolf (which by nature has a pelt) has no pelt to drop. That a winged bat has no wing to drop. On the other hand, a fish with no hands (and is smaller than a sword) carried a sword and now drops it.
Thank you for your comment. We always take notice when our readers call us idiots. In this case, the venom in your comment made me think that you took offense at my use of the word. I hope my clarification makes things better. :)
And to the other commenters, yes I have no life. Is it not obvious? Hehe.
After all, what do you do when you graduate with a degree in philosophy? What do you do if you're a nerd that scored perfectly in the SATs and the AP English exams (back in the days when he was younger and his mind more spry)? In my case, I ended up writing for a living. And because life isn't just about paying the bills, I spend my free time overanalyzing EVERYTHING - even the RPGs I so love. *grins*
I go away for a while and come back to see this comment. I must clarify some things.
A paradox is a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory or absurd but actually expresses a possible truth. In the case of this article, the term is not used in its strict logical sense. It is used loosely - what some linguistic philosophers and some poststructuralists call metaphorical language - which is perfectly valid English. But there is even a defense for describing loot drops as logical paradoxes. It seems to be a contradictory statement to say that a wolf (which by nature has a pelt) has no pelt to drop. That a winged bat has no wing to drop. On the other hand, a fish with no hands (and is smaller than a sword) carried a sword and now drops it.
Thank you for your comment. We always take notice when our readers call us idiots. In this case, the venom in your comment made me think that you took offense at my use of the word. I hope my clarification makes things better. :)
And to the other commenters, yes I have no life. Is it not obvious? Hehe.
After all, what do you do when you graduate with a degree in philosophy? What do you do if you're a nerd that scored perfectly in the SATs and the AP English exams (back in the days when he was younger and his mind more spry)? In my case, I ended up writing for a living. And because life isn't just about paying the bills, I spend my free time overanalyzing EVERYTHING - even the RPGs I so love. *grins*
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by andrewr4 - 2007-01-23 |
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» A joke
Robbing hood takes from the rich and gives to...
Monsters. How else does a level 5 spider have that much gold.
Robbing hood takes from the rich and gives to...
Monsters. How else does a level 5 spider have that much gold.
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Re: skythra (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» lol
lol, what can i say, i play rpg's but its just one of those things you come to terms with very early and forget about how silly it is. you continue with the game in unrealisticly pretty areas and impossible dungeons fighting alongside humans and not humans and we all consider this just 'part of the game' and once its justified not really thought about again. i hardly think it detracts from a game.
though there are simple things that can be said, you carry viles on yourself to be able to harvest things off corpses like livers and brains, but the loot tables might be able to suggest that items like 'smashed brains' which is unable to be used for whatever quest, or 'tickle of blood' implying that you had already bled it to death during your encounter, with the blood now seeping into the dirt around you instead of being collectable. but im not going to ask for realism, i prefer their efforts go into other areas first
lol, what can i say, i play rpg's but its just one of those things you come to terms with very early and forget about how silly it is. you continue with the game in unrealisticly pretty areas and impossible dungeons fighting alongside humans and not humans and we all consider this just 'part of the game' and once its justified not really thought about again. i hardly think it detracts from a game.
though there are simple things that can be said, you carry viles on yourself to be able to harvest things off corpses like livers and brains, but the loot tables might be able to suggest that items like 'smashed brains' which is unable to be used for whatever quest, or 'tickle of blood' implying that you had already bled it to death during your encounter, with the blood now seeping into the dirt around you instead of being collectable. but im not going to ask for realism, i prefer their efforts go into other areas first
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by WACOMalt (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» I do and dont agree.
I know too much realism can make games suck (why would you play games that were no different from real life?)
But I also agree that is you are in a quest to get 8 livers from something, then it would make absolutely no sense for that thing to not have a liver... or the brainless ogres... And people saying your inventory would get too full too fast don't realize that you can choose what you take from your kills. aka only take the worthwhile stuff.
Like someone said with how link in TP carries a giant metal spiked ball, a sword, 2 changes of clothes (including iron boots) and all that extra crap...
well. Showing what all your character has, ON your character (in any game) would be impossible, or would limit you too much in the amount you could hold. But smarter looting systems would in no way hinder gameplay (as long as it was balanced out.)
thats my $0.02
I know too much realism can make games suck (why would you play games that were no different from real life?)
But I also agree that is you are in a quest to get 8 livers from something, then it would make absolutely no sense for that thing to not have a liver... or the brainless ogres... And people saying your inventory would get too full too fast don't realize that you can choose what you take from your kills. aka only take the worthwhile stuff.
Like someone said with how link in TP carries a giant metal spiked ball, a sword, 2 changes of clothes (including iron boots) and all that extra crap...
well. Showing what all your character has, ON your character (in any game) would be impossible, or would limit you too much in the amount you could hold. But smarter looting systems would in no way hinder gameplay (as long as it was balanced out.)
thats my $0.02
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by DESU (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» It's just a game
If you think about it, when you're playing Final Fantasy or whatever, it isn't a real world you're in. It's just a bunch of polygons and pixels and coding. It doesn't matter what something drops because it's not even dropping anything, it's made to look like you got one of an item... and item that doesn't even exist. Sometimes you don't even see the item in RPG's. If you want RPG's to be realistic, then eventually you'd have creators having to make individual potions that look different from one another. Like if you picked up a potion in a city area, it will look dusty, and if you pick it up in a snow area, it would be covered in snow, and different potions you pick up in the show area can be scratched or covered in more snow. In my opinion, that's kinda ridiculous since they all don't exist and it's all just an illusion as you play the game. By the way, I have never heard in my entire life, anyone complain about realism of items/loots in RPG's. How long has this ***** been going on for?
If you think about it, when you're playing Final Fantasy or whatever, it isn't a real world you're in. It's just a bunch of polygons and pixels and coding. It doesn't matter what something drops because it's not even dropping anything, it's made to look like you got one of an item... and item that doesn't even exist. Sometimes you don't even see the item in RPG's. If you want RPG's to be realistic, then eventually you'd have creators having to make individual potions that look different from one another. Like if you picked up a potion in a city area, it will look dusty, and if you pick it up in a snow area, it would be covered in snow, and different potions you pick up in the show area can be scratched or covered in more snow. In my opinion, that's kinda ridiculous since they all don't exist and it's all just an illusion as you play the game. By the way, I have never heard in my entire life, anyone complain about realism of items/loots in RPG's. How long has this ***** been going on for?
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by Alexeon (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» Lots of hate... sheesh
I found this article amusing. I dont know whats wrong with all these people and their accusations of no life.
I agree with the idea of better logic rather than better realism. Crates in malls makes no sense (unless its a back room) so maybe put the treasure or power up in a grocery bag (for things like healing items) or shopping carts (for bigger things) and monsters should drop things that make sense. Those turtles from FFTA that had swords stuck to their back would obviously be able to give you a nice sword. A giant dragon might give you armor that it ate (maybe anti-fire armor) and zombies might have really low level armor (depending on the area) as well as brains and the other stuff.
Hmm, other than maybe a dark mage or necromancer or something, who would buy a zombie's brain? Why would the item shop owner want a zombie's brain? Maybe some items could only be sold to specific people (you would get more money by selling an old journal of a mage to a scholar than to the local armor shop) or maybe have one person who would buy all your items you are willing to sell but would do so for a bit less, since they have to go sell them to the right shops themselves.
But if we go the route of realism, then zombie brains would be impossible and magic wouldnt even exist, and I dont think I want to play an RPG where magic doesnt exist in some form (like the nanotech from Xenosaga... not really magic, but it works just as well.)
Well those are my thoughts. If you disagree with them then please say so, but do not tell me that I have nothing better to do than read this, because I dont care.
I found this article amusing. I dont know whats wrong with all these people and their accusations of no life.
I agree with the idea of better logic rather than better realism. Crates in malls makes no sense (unless its a back room) so maybe put the treasure or power up in a grocery bag (for things like healing items) or shopping carts (for bigger things) and monsters should drop things that make sense. Those turtles from FFTA that had swords stuck to their back would obviously be able to give you a nice sword. A giant dragon might give you armor that it ate (maybe anti-fire armor) and zombies might have really low level armor (depending on the area) as well as brains and the other stuff.
Hmm, other than maybe a dark mage or necromancer or something, who would buy a zombie's brain? Why would the item shop owner want a zombie's brain? Maybe some items could only be sold to specific people (you would get more money by selling an old journal of a mage to a scholar than to the local armor shop) or maybe have one person who would buy all your items you are willing to sell but would do so for a bit less, since they have to go sell them to the right shops themselves.
But if we go the route of realism, then zombie brains would be impossible and magic wouldnt even exist, and I dont think I want to play an RPG where magic doesnt exist in some form (like the nanotech from Xenosaga... not really magic, but it works just as well.)
Well those are my thoughts. If you disagree with them then please say so, but do not tell me that I have nothing better to do than read this, because I dont care.
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Re: Alexeon (Unregistered) - 2007-01-23 |
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» Just thought of something
Bags of holding for the item problems. Its not impossible if the RPG you are playing has magic, right?
Bags of holding for the item problems. Its not impossible if the RPG you are playing has magic, right?
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by tuddy (Unregistered) - 2007-01-24 |
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» too relaistic!
I've played RPGs since I was 9, and I've never worried WHY the crab gave me 100gil and a sword for kicking it's butt. Infact, some parody RPGs on the internet embrace this stupidity, and use it as a part of their games.
"HeroA: I wonder why the hell that little bunny rabbit had a dagger inside it."
"HeroB: Seriously, if I get another dagger from another bunny rabbit, I'm gonna scream."
Copied (and edited) from... I forget :D
I've played RPGs since I was 9, and I've never worried WHY the crab gave me 100gil and a sword for kicking it's butt. Infact, some parody RPGs on the internet embrace this stupidity, and use it as a part of their games.
"HeroA: I wonder why the hell that little bunny rabbit had a dagger inside it."
"HeroB: Seriously, if I get another dagger from another bunny rabbit, I'm gonna scream."
Copied (and edited) from... I forget :D
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by Ronmaru (Unregistered) - 2007-01-24 |
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» realism =/= tedious
Sure, realism can make a game become tedious, but the same thing stands for unrealistic games. All I mean to say is that it all depends on the game developers. It's up to them if they add realism to it and then totally screw the game up. If a game element is poorly implemented, it will always result in a poor game.
The example of a well implemented realistic touch is Monster Hunter (as stated before). Sure, there is still room for improvement, but it is very well done as it is already.
I used to be a big fan of traditional rpg's like Final Fantasy, but ever since I played Monster Hunter Freedom, all the traditional turn-based rpg's just feel boring to me, partly because of the lack of realism. This is the case for even FFXII, where you simply have to press a button in a menu to give out a command (not to mention how lazy you can get with the gambit system).
Monster Hunter is a game where you actually have control over your character and it requires actual skill to fight a monster. I really recommend people to try this game out, it will change your opinion about rpg's for good.
Sure, realism can make a game become tedious, but the same thing stands for unrealistic games. All I mean to say is that it all depends on the game developers. It's up to them if they add realism to it and then totally screw the game up. If a game element is poorly implemented, it will always result in a poor game.
The example of a well implemented realistic touch is Monster Hunter (as stated before). Sure, there is still room for improvement, but it is very well done as it is already.
I used to be a big fan of traditional rpg's like Final Fantasy, but ever since I played Monster Hunter Freedom, all the traditional turn-based rpg's just feel boring to me, partly because of the lack of realism. This is the case for even FFXII, where you simply have to press a button in a menu to give out a command (not to mention how lazy you can get with the gambit system).
Monster Hunter is a game where you actually have control over your character and it requires actual skill to fight a monster. I really recommend people to try this game out, it will change your opinion about rpg's for good.
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by r35 (Unregistered) - 2007-01-24 |
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» oblivion
oblivion has really good loot dropping, your average goblin actually drops his equipped weapons on the ground with full ragdoll, and the creatures such as the slaughterfish ocassionally have something stupid like gold but that is still technically realistic the fish could've eaten the coin? unlike games like Dungeon siege where a wolf carries a double bladed staff or a claymore... LOL Still doesnt bother me tho
oblivion has really good loot dropping, your average goblin actually drops his equipped weapons on the ground with full ragdoll, and the creatures such as the slaughterfish ocassionally have something stupid like gold but that is still technically realistic the fish could've eaten the coin? unlike games like Dungeon siege where a wolf carries a double bladed staff or a claymore... LOL Still doesnt bother me tho
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by Snaku (Unregistered) - 2007-01-24 |
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» Semi off topic but in a similar vein....
You know what I would really like to see in rpg's or even in other genres? How about if instead of the traditional experience/level up mechanics, you actually improve at a particular skill by doing it.
The more you fight with a sword, the better your sword skills get. Similar weapons (other melee weapons) would gain experience as well, though not as much as the sword, whereas swinging that sword around would do nothing for your aim with a bow.
The only game I know that does this to some extent is GTA: San Andreas. I always liked that it was by running and riding the bike that your stamina improved, it was by shooting a gun that your aim improved, etc.
It could even be taken further by having your hp improve after you've taken enough damage: kind of like it's toughening you up or something.
You know what I would really like to see in rpg's or even in other genres? How about if instead of the traditional experience/level up mechanics, you actually improve at a particular skill by doing it.
The more you fight with a sword, the better your sword skills get. Similar weapons (other melee weapons) would gain experience as well, though not as much as the sword, whereas swinging that sword around would do nothing for your aim with a bow.
The only game I know that does this to some extent is GTA: San Andreas. I always liked that it was by running and riding the bike that your stamina improved, it was by shooting a gun that your aim improved, etc.
It could even be taken further by having your hp improve after you've taken enough damage: kind of like it's toughening you up or something.
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Re: Party Van (Unregistered) - 2007-01-24 |
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» Um...
Heaps of RPG's are like this. What have you been playing the past 15 years?
Heaps of RPG's are like this. What have you been playing the past 15 years?
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Re: Oblivion (Unregistered) - 2007-01-25 |
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» Oblivion
For example... Oblivion is a really good example of that...
For example... Oblivion is a really good example of that...
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by jaybz (Unregistered) - 2007-01-29 |
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» problems with the article (sorry, long post too)
i'd first like to say i agree with the article somewhat. but that isn't of consequence really as i haven't played an rpg that has logical item drop rules. the only thing wrong actually is the use of the word "realism". Links has it spot on saying that the loot drops should be more logical but not necessarily realistic. it's all about immersion people.
sure, a fantasy world might be totaly unrealistic, however, the game designers make the rpgs such that you put yourself in the shoes of the main character or one of the main characters. they make it so that you play the role yourself. of course this isn't what everybody wants to do when the play mmos. however, you know for sure that this is how the designers meant it to be because of the language used by npcs. you don't see npcs doing what other players do and say "u r l33t" or "u suck!" in a medieval fantasy rpg do you? it's all about immersion, and a rabbit dropping a halberd along with a pouch of gold is a distraction from this immersion. given, we are used to this distraction so much because it's how it has always been done. but only people who have played rpgs with item drop rules that are completely consistent with the game world's rules should be able to give proper criticism to the article's idea itself. i have played several rpgs myself and i still wonder about how to justify the kind of loot drops i get.
also one thing i find wrong about the article is the suggestion of adding tracking and avoiding. it is not a bad idea in itself. what's wrong is i don't see how it ties in to the loot problem in the first place. it might be able to allow players to pick their fights more, but i don't see how it helps such that wolves drop wolf pelts instead of bottled potions. the battle finesse and harvesting though might be good ways of implementing proper loot droping. but that's how far i would have gone.
i'd first like to say i agree with the article somewhat. but that isn't of consequence really as i haven't played an rpg that has logical item drop rules. the only thing wrong actually is the use of the word "realism". Links has it spot on saying that the loot drops should be more logical but not necessarily realistic. it's all about immersion people.
sure, a fantasy world might be totaly unrealistic, however, the game designers make the rpgs such that you put yourself in the shoes of the main character or one of the main characters. they make it so that you play the role yourself. of course this isn't what everybody wants to do when the play mmos. however, you know for sure that this is how the designers meant it to be because of the language used by npcs. you don't see npcs doing what other players do and say "u r l33t" or "u suck!" in a medieval fantasy rpg do you? it's all about immersion, and a rabbit dropping a halberd along with a pouch of gold is a distraction from this immersion. given, we are used to this distraction so much because it's how it has always been done. but only people who have played rpgs with item drop rules that are completely consistent with the game world's rules should be able to give proper criticism to the article's idea itself. i have played several rpgs myself and i still wonder about how to justify the kind of loot drops i get.
also one thing i find wrong about the article is the suggestion of adding tracking and avoiding. it is not a bad idea in itself. what's wrong is i don't see how it ties in to the loot problem in the first place. it might be able to allow players to pick their fights more, but i don't see how it helps such that wolves drop wolf pelts instead of bottled potions. the battle finesse and harvesting though might be good ways of implementing proper loot droping. but that's how far i would have gone.
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